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Interview with Guest Commentators

At the end of the Playshop day, the Playshop Designers interviewed the Guest Commentators and some participants about their experience of the day.

Playshop Designers who interviewed the Guest Commentators and participants were Mr. Yoshiro Miyata, Mr. Nobuyuki Ueda and Mr. Hillel Weintraub. Guest Commentators were Ms. Edith Ackermann, Mr. Milton Chen, Ms. Ruth Cox, and Mr. Jogi Panghaal. Participants in Playshop, Mr. Masayuki Sawai (fifth grade) and Ms. Yoshiko Sawai (mother of Masayuki), were also interviewed.

Table of contents
1. Let's share our exciting experience of the day!
2. Multimedia and Education
3. Family-like intimacy among participants
4. Children full of playful spirit played an important role
5. Paradox between learning and teaching
6. Play means to make narratives
7. It is hard to explain your exciting experiences to others
8. What I expect from school education
9. Enjoy from the bottom of your heart!
10. A permanent space for Playshops
11. How to make schools playful
12. A touch of a playful spirit can make a difference

1. Let's share our exciting experience of the day!
Ueda: Hello, everyone. Today is November 28, and a Playshop with approximately 200 participants was held on the 13th floor of the Benesse building located in Tama. This is probably the first Playshop that was held in the world, and the first one in Japan. We organized this Playshop in order to think about how we could make a playful situation or environment for the children and families. We would like to take this time to ask the guests from other countries who have been here with us since yesterday's preparation to discuss freely what they felt, and what they would like to see in the future Japanese education. I am Nobuyuki Ueda, and I will be your host for this session. First, I would like to introduce you to our guests. Please tell us briefly about yourselves: where you are from, what you do for a living, etc.
Jogi: Thank you. I'm Jogi Panghaal; I live in Delhi, India. I'm a designer. I work with village based rural artistic communities. What that means is that I work with the traditional materials, traditional context with traditional skills. I help design products for new markets, which are not essentially in the rural areas. Also what it calls for is different kinds of work methodology, which using Hillel's terminology, I would call playful methodology or dancing methodology.
Ueda: Milton-san, please.
Milton: I'm Milton Chen, I'm from the George Lucas Education Foundation in Northern California near San Francisco, and my own background is in educational media. I'm interested in how media and technology can make education and learning more interesting, more enlivening for young people. So I was especially interested to participate today since I think the spirit of today's Playshop was very much the kind of spirit all children need more of.
Ruth: Hello, I am Ruth Cox and I am a social psychologist. I'm also a performing artist, an actress. So my interest has been in the use of performance and creative expression of all kinds to help people learn more effectively and share their feelings. Today it was very exciting to see so many adults and children engaging in play with one another. I am from San Francisco, California.
Edith: My name is Edith Ackermann. I am Swiss, I come from Geneva where I worked for many years at the Jean Piaqet Institute. I am a development psychologist and slowly but truly in my life journey, I moved from studying children's learning to actually designing environments for constructive learning for children. I did quite some work on children's pretense play, so I was very interested to participate in this day that was organized on children's play and play in general and the role of play and learning.
Ueda: Thank you very much. We also have with us today a mother and child who have participated in today's workshop, the Sawai family. Sawai-kun, what grade are you in now?
Sawai-kun: I am in the 5th grade.
Ueda: The 5th grade. You are here with your mother today, aren't you?
Sawai-kun: Yes.
Ueda: I would like to ask you a few questions later on. Sawai-san, please tell us about yourself.
Sawai-san: I am here today with my son who is in the 5th grade of elementary school. I learned that it is very interesting to do something while moving our bodies with each other. I am looking forward to hearing different stories today.
Ueda: Thank you. For this session, I would like to take about 20 to 30 minutes asking the members their impressions with two other members. I would like to introduce the other two.
Miyata: I am Yoshiro Miyata of Chukyo University. I always think hard about how learning sometimes becomes really meaningful to each individual especially in the case of the younger generation. I felt that in today's playshop, making these playful moments really brought out the ways people discover something meaningful. I am interested in listening to the ideas of others today.
Ueda: Yes, we would like to hear many kinds of opinions. Hillel-san, please.
Hillel: Hi, My name is Hillel Weintraub. I am from Kyoto, and I work at Doshisha International Junior/ Senior High School. I am interested in the design of learning spaces and how the space that people interact in affects their relationship to each other and to media and learning itself.
Ueda: We would like to proceed with these members. The Playshop ended about 30 minutes ago, so the atmosphere is still very energetic. First of all, I would like to ask all of you what your impressions are of today's workshop. Ruth-san, were you able to have fun today?
Ruth: Very much. From the very beginning when we made bracelets that everyone wore! And then we made vests. You can see, Milton Chen is wearing his vest. So there was hands-on from the very beginning, which is very unusual in any kind of workshop that I've been to. So we used all of our senses: sense of touch, we had lunch - the sense of taste and sense of smell - and lots and lots of movement, so it was very engaging, I think. And we watched both children and adults highly engaged.
Ueda: Milton-san, do you like the vest you made yourself?
Chen: I like my vest very much. I've lost a few items that I had on it - they've gone away! But when I started out I had many more items on it. Here's one that says "eat, drink, play" - you see here.
Ueda: Edith-san, how about you? You came all the way from Switzerland, and you probably didn't know what was going to happen today. We would like to hear your comments.
Edith: Well I was very surprised. Two things come to mind right now. Maybe more will come later. The first thing is that it is very difficult to organize a program that interests children as well as adults, and that for me was the sign of success because usually there are ones accompanying and other ones are more at the center. Here, I really felt that both the children and the adults were very engaged. That's the first thing. The second thing that was very striking for me - and I have participated in many kinds of creative workshops - is the way the guidance was done. It was very different. At the beginning, it was very guided, but towards the end, different groups actually came on stage, so after a long period of guidance, the participants actually took on the stage. That was also very impressive to me, and maybe later I will have more to say.
Ueda: Edith-san, thank you very much. Jogi-san arrived in Japan late last night. What kind of energy did you feel when you came into the Playshop?
Jogi: It was wonderful to be here, and I forgot my jet lag instantly.
Ueda: You participated in the workshop and played together with the children. How was that, and how were the Japanese people?
Jogi: I have been asked before what I was expecting, what my anticipations were. I must say that I was worried that if it was programmed too tight, the play would become very formal and there would not be informal spaces in between. But I was very happy to find that actually the tightness of it, the formality of it, dissolving soon. And possibly that was anticipated as well. So this fear was widely shared, I suppose.
Ueda: I would like to ask Masayuki-kun, a 5th grader, what his impressions are.
Sawai-kun: I had an excellent time today. There was nothing boring, and I found it very difficult to express different words (using body gestures) because we needed the ability to express. Making the cakes and watching the edited video also made a big impression on me.
Ueda: Was there a big difference in the image you had before you came here; "I wonder what's going to happen today?" and the image you got after you actually came here?
Sawai-kun: Yes, there was a big difference.
Ueda: What kind of image did you originally have when you first received the invitation?
Sawai-kun: In the beginning, I really didn't have an image because I wasn't sure what this was all about...
Ueda: You didn't really understand what the work PLAYFUL meant?
Sawai-kun: Exactly. I couldn't really grasp the meaning of PLAYFUL, so I tried thinking what the meaning would be. I did get an idea that it would be something enjoyable.
Ueda: I see. Were you able to feel something playful with your body today?
Sawai-kun: I felt something of the sort.
Ueda: I think you may feel something gradually after some time. Thank you very much. Sawai-san, would you tell us your impressions?
Sawai-san: I also had no idea what was going to happen in the beginning but gradually came to understand after I came here. In the beginning, we all made vests, a kind of uniform that we could make any way we wanted to. While making these vests, phrases such as "may I please borrow the scissors," "What should I do with the string?" became greetings. I felt that if we started by using our bodies, we were able to naturally greet others. We were all able to speak with the mothers and children that we met for the first time. In the sessions that followed afterwards, we also started with moving our bodies first and then adding words, so when I look back, I realized that there was an order of first moving the bodies and then the words. This was very impressive for me.

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2. Multimedia and Education
Ueda: Milton-san, when people think of new education, they automatically think of multimedia such as the Internet or computers. However, we wanted to create an environment that could be brought into the 21st century. Today we didn't use computers but instead used our bodily movements, scissors and vests as media. We also had different kinds of kitchen utensils to make instruments. We wanted the participants to use all of these in order to express themselves. You have done many researches and made videos on American education and technology. What kind of opinions do you have when you compare today's workshop to your research?
Milton: Well actually we had a lot of technology all around us. Technology you can define as tools. We had a lot of tools, some which you can see here that were used to make instruments, for making art, we also had some digital technology around for taking pictures and photographs for making a website, and making a video. So it was great not to have so much emphasis placed on whether these tools were technology, electric, digital vs. paper and pencil and scissors. The important points of these are the ways of expressing ourselves. And ways of making learning more enjoyable, more playful. I like this young man (Sawai-kun)'s word of "enjoyable," so I think that's what we need to do, to make learning more enjoyable. And I was also very struck by the communication in the groups between children and parents who have never met each other before. I thought that was quite unusual and there were times when it almost seemed like you couldn't tell which children belonged to which parent. There was just an instant kind of group energy that I thought was very exciting.

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3. Family-like intimacy among participants
Ueda: Hillel-san, do you have anything regarding Milton-san's comment?
Hillel: I also sometimes looked in the groups and was thinking "Oh, gee. That must be the father or mother of that child " because they were interacting so closely and effortlessly, and it was very impressive for me. And really again emphasized how if you create the right environment with the right spirit, then children and adults can really interact together beautifully.
Ueda: Hillel-san, you may have many reactions towards what Milton-san has mentioned.
Jogi/Hillel: If we have the right conditions, we can have a good set of dialog between the parents and children.
Ueda: Thank you very much. Now we would like to ask the Sawai family some questions. I think the two of you were in different groups, each doing things separately. As it was mentioned earlier, we really felt that each group looked like a real family. Sawai-kun, in your group, there were parents of other children working together with you. How was it working with other fathers?
Sawai-kun: Umm...
Ueda: How many fathers and mothers were there in your group?
Sawai-kun: about 2 or 3 fathers and mothers.
Ueda: Oh, is that right? Was it difficult speaking to them in the beginning?
Sawai-kun: It was difficult at first, but as time went on, it became easier.
Ueda: How about you, Sawai-san? Were there any children in your group?
Sawai-san: Yes. There were 2 children, a 5th grader and a 6th grader. There were 2 mothers and a father, a relatively small group.
Ueda: I see.
Sawai-san: Yes. In the end we all did a skit, and it really felt as if we were a family when we were preparing for the skit. I felt that we really became close after being together for one day.
Ueda: Miyata-san said that when he looked at the groups, he felt as if the groups were one happy family. The panels were set like they are now, and when the groups went to these panels, there was a relaxed atmosphere. Miyata-san, would you like to comment?
Miyata: I am intrigued by how the groups became that way, and I would like to consider this with everyone. For example, Sawai-san, did you observe your son from your group?
Sawai-san: I tried looking for him, but he fit in so well within his group it was hard for me to find him. I think all of us, parent and child, became children and played without worrying, or was it just me? But when I did see my son, he was very into the games and I was surprised to see him so engrossed when acting as if he was an astronaut.
Miyata: So from the usual way your son acted...
Sawai-san: Yes. I think at home he is very conscious of his parents, but today, he didn't seem so and was having a great time.
Miyata: Masayuki-kun, do you have any comments on that?
Sawai-kun: I really didn't think about my real mother since I was putting all my efforts into what I was doing.
Sawai-san: You forgot?
Sawai-kun: No, I didn't have to think.
Ueda: Ruth-san, do you have any reactions?
Ruth: I was able to speak to several parents today, and one mother said she was very happy to be separated from her children because it broke the dependency that the child would always be saying "Mother what shall I do now? " "How should I do this now?" and she felt free from that. Plus she liked that her child was independent and was able to play independently of her. So, both mother and child were independent. And also, there were many fathers today, so I am glad that this happened on a Sunday, so that many fathers could be here with their children to play.

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4. Children full of playful spirit played an important role
Ueda: Today there were about 60 children in the 5th grade and 6th grade range. Aside from them, there were children in kindergarten and younger. I think these children really changed the spirit and the atmosphere of the workshop. Jogi-san, how did you feel with the small children running around?
Jogi: In fact, I liked that very much. I think this was a situation where there was more play there with the little children than there was with us. There were several occasions where I felt that because those little kids were purely inventive, totally unpredictable, and actually going by the way the bodies wanted them to go. That was very nice to see, and just to remind us actually what true play is.

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5. Paradox between learning and teaching
Ueda: Now I would like to ask Edith-san. For many years you have done research in how to design a stimulating learning environment for children. In this kind of Playshop, we, the designers were not able to design everything beforehand. Different kinds of people will come and various things will happen. Our challenge was how we could plan for this emergent environment. We would appreciate it if you would tell us your opinions on the designing of this kind of an environment that is open ended, that is unlike the traditional method of providing some kind of knowledge, that is very open, that is unpredictable, and one that the teacher seriously wants to create something together while feeling a sense of thrill.
Edith: That's a difficult question. I would like to say that this is the paradox of learning and teaching. I always say that if you want the learner to be engaged and to actually discover things by themselves, you shouldn't tell them before they ask themselves the questions. So this raises the question of how do you plan for an environment in which the learner is supposed to learn things by themselves? My sense is that what you propose and also the kind of environments that I have tried to design, have elements that give milestones, but in between, the people really construct their own narrative or construct their own stories. The trick is to give enough guidance so that there is every now and then a milestone, but not to give too much guidance so there is no more places to fill in empty slots. So I have no answer to your question and I can only say that this is the great question in designing environments for learning. The big difference between building environments in which people should learn by themselves and just to give curriculum that is delivered to the children.
Ueda: Thank you for your wonderful comments. This is the direction that the people who are related to education in one way or another are seriously thinking about. We feel that it is very important that we hold many more of these Playshops and think constructively on what we can do as designers and what will happen in these Playshops.

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6. Play means to make narratives
Ueda: Jogi-san, I think there is some kind of a relation between what happened today - having the participants experience something, communicate what they experienced by words, gestures, or other media, talk about what they felt and reflect on what they are saying through this process - and the issue of narratives. I think you have various comments on narratives where you talk about your experiences, discuss, and reflect. Would you tell us your opinions?
Jogi: In the past I have tried to look at the act of play as something that one does with a given narrative. Here I define narrative in a loose way, as something that has existed, something that exists, that's given. And story is something that does not exist yet. So we use the narrative and we construct our own story. The moment it's constructed, actually it falls back in being a narrative. So it's in that sense that I try to differentiate between these two entities. How do we sort of relate to what has happened or exists already? Against something we create. And this act of creation is for me the act of play. I spoke for so long. Basically it's simple. We shouldn't get into the words.@There are things that already exist, and unless we open ourselves up, awaken our bodies in a particular way; we can't construct new stories. So we have to be playful, open up our bodies and it's through this openness that we create new stories. So this step is very important. There is something that exists, we open ourselves up, we play, and through that act we create new stories. So, absolutely to create something new, it's important to be playful.
Ueda: I am sorry for a complex question. Miyata-san would like to comment.
Miyata: Jogi-san, if you were to take an example from today's workshop based on what you just said, what would it be?
Jogi: It's something like what [that invented musical toy] Ruth has in her hands, you know. It's as simple as that. There was a bowl full of narrative there, with materials, which were like this, and like this. But she with her playfulness puts it together and makes something. That's her story. But now once it's there, I can use it, and it's a part of a common narrative. But the next step, again using it in the manner that she has invented it, or she put it together, would require me to be playful again.
Ueda: Ruth, if you have anything to say from the perspective of play, we would appreciate your comments.
Ruth: Well, I think that the comment I would have is that in every single home, we have the possibilities of making instruments that a very young child could create, with very simple materials. So we do not need high tech to invent our own home orchestra that the whole family can get involved, instead we can play together with very simple materials.

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7. It is hard to explain your exciting experiences to others
Ueda: Masayuki-kun, you experienced many things today. When you go back home, would you like to do this with your friends tomorrow?
Sawai-kun: Yes, I would.
Ueda: So when you are asked, "Where did you go yesterday? " you will probably reply that you went to a Playshop. What kind of experience would you like to tell your friends?
Sawai-kun: I think it would be very difficult to communicate what I experienced to others, so I'm not sure at this moment.
Ueda: Would you like to actually do some of the movements?
Sawai-kun: Yes. I would like to perform what I did today.
Ueda: That would be fun. If you show others what you did, then it would be easier to tell them, wouldn't it?
Sawai-kun: Yes. Then it would be much easier to tell them... For some reason the experiences that are interesting are harder to talk about. I don't know what to say when I try to describe them.
Ueda: Interesting things do seem harder to explain for some reason.
Sawai-kun: There are times when it is difficult to express in words what I feel, so that is why I am not sure whether I would be able to tell my friends.

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8. What I expect from school education
Ueda: Thank you very much. Sawai-san, presently this kind of situation does not really exist in schools, but from the year 2002, the Ministry of Education will be making time for integrative studies. The object is to aim for education where the children can do creative work, for them to be independent in interacting with others, making and discovering issues and cooperating with others. Has your image of future education changed in some way after your participation in this Playshop or do you have any hopes of how the education will be?
Sawai-san: My biggest impression of today is that I really enjoyed myself. When I look around, I see that a lot of effort has been put into the preparation, such as the efficient amount of tools and the cooperative work of the staff members. I felt that in order for us to enjoy ourselves, the designing of the environment is necessary. Therefore, in order for me to imitate something like this would need lots of planning. If the future school education gradually changes into a situation like this, the teachers will need to do tremendous amount of preparation, but I do not know if all of the schools will be able to carry out this responsibility. This is something that I know nothing about, so I would like for the teachers to think deeply on this issue.
Ueda: Thank you very much. Now I would like to conclude this session with comments from each guest on the children and the environment around the children, and how the adults could design this. Edith-san, could we start with you? Anything is fine.

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9. Enjoy from the bottom of your heart!
Edith: That is another difficult one. My sense is that the best way in which parents can contribute is to just put their own minds and their own joy in actually having activities together with their children, no matter what it is. It's a mindset. It's not a question of the materials available. And sometimes the parents do not have the time to actually be playful with their children, to include them in what they are passionate about. But if they can do that, it does the trick.

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10. A permanent space for Playshops
Ruth: I feel it is very brave of a corporation like Benesse to do this kind of workshop/Playshop. I think it would be wonderful to have a permanent space in Japan like a museum or we have something called an Exploratorium where this kind of playful learning goes on everyday. So parents could choose to bring their children and participate themselves and learn themselves, but really let the learning environment be created by corporations, and the government and the parents together to create a permanent space for children in Japan.

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11. How to make schools playful
Milton: Today, one of the activities was for the children and adults to bring a photograph of a playful/happy moment in their lives, and we saw a lot of photographs of the children and their parents on a trip. Climbing mountains, hiking, swimming, at Disney Land, and family gatherings. I have done something similar where I've asked children and adults to talk about their most exciting learning activity or experience, and they often talk about activities outside of school. Maybe they learned something at a museum or they learned something at home. Sometimes they'll mention even learning something from television or a movie, or learning something at work. So I think the challenge is how can we make school more playful? How can we make learning more enjoyable? I think we learned today that playful learning is really group learning, that there are a lot of energy and power in the group, that learning is social, and that it is not done as an individual looking at the textbook, but really in a group creating products, creating works of arts. So I would like to see the schools be more like museums and more like the kinds of environment we saw today.

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12. A touch of a playful spirit can make a difference
Jogi: I am told that the root meaning of school is actually to play. It has those connotations. ... Coming from India, I have this critical way of looking at play, because I feel play is something the children do, and learning is what we impose on them. It's really a challenge to bring the two qualities together, 2 needs together: need for the body to awaken itself, to assert itself, essentially to play, and also the need to learn. So how do you mix the two together? Because I feel there is a common territory of the mind here, and I feel that as long as the mind is not still, the body cannot actually get into the act of play. And when there is learning involved there is a problem there, we tend to make everything formal, very self-conscious, very organized. So we have to be basically very careful that the entire territory of play is not brought into a situation where it becomes totally organized and actually is not in the control of the child. Play is an area that should stay in the control of the child.
Ueda: Thank you very much. Today we had the interpreters here the whole day and I am sorry to have asked difficult questions when they are so tired. I would like to thank the guests that came to this playshop from different countries. I am grateful that during this session we were able to listen to how everyone felt after they participated in the Playshop. This has also encouraged us to continue to do our best towards this new form of education. We would like to ask for your continued support. I am certain that this opportunity will be a playful beginning. Thank you very much.
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